tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post1953634442170805024..comments2023-11-05T06:37:16.480-05:00Comments on Nilbog's Storybook Land: Things I *GASP* Dislike About the Star Wars SagaThe Nilboghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-79857524476505504462013-01-12T21:30:48.747-05:002013-01-12T21:30:48.747-05:00I kind of have a knee jerk when I hear the "H...I kind of have a knee jerk when I hear the "Han Shot First" argument because it always seemed to be making a huge deal out of a minor issue. I do understand the sentiment since I'm the opposite way (I.e. my first viewing of the scene had Greedo shoot first and any alternate felt wrong until the latest one), but not the vehemence most people take with it. <br /><br />But you're obviously not most people, so you rock.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-36667155248843630772013-01-12T21:02:23.134-05:002013-01-12T21:02:23.134-05:00I have one nitpick. Han shot. No Greedo shooting o...I have one nitpick. Han shot. No Greedo shooting or whatever. The near simultaneous shots in the Blu-rays is a decent compromise, but changing that scene does change Han's story a little. Other than that - I'm fine. I watch these movies through a kid's eyes, those of nine-year-old me in 1977. So much of the technical stuff, the acting or the story issues are of no real concern to me. And Jar Jar rocks.Jim Gallanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151026090009279980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-59234573363231119522013-01-03T06:34:30.179-05:002013-01-03T06:34:30.179-05:00Well-said.Well-said.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-67559472511352699422013-01-03T01:18:07.819-05:002013-01-03T01:18:07.819-05:00Yes, the Star Was films have things we like and di...Yes, the Star Was films have things we like and dislike, and this applies to all films in general. All films are far from being perfect and show that, despite the mistakes and shortcuts, we can still admire them or despise them with the utmost passion of living. I think that sometimes, the films' mistakes turn into the films' triumphs in the grand end of things and that filmmakers learn from their mistakes when all is said and done. George Lucas certainly learned from his mistakes, and even if he continued to make them, he made a lot of triumphs as well that made me forget all about the mistakes and just enjoy whatever he brought forward. The Warp 8 Blogspothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18023207283814553753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-63962056296907331592012-12-28T20:57:34.412-05:002012-12-28T20:57:34.412-05:00Thanks for the recommendation, I'll give it a ...Thanks for the recommendation, I'll give it a go and get back to you when I've read it.T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-79866473000185853992012-12-28T20:47:00.987-05:002012-12-28T20:47:00.987-05:00I'd say start with Lard Biscuit's analysis...I'd say start with Lard Biscuit's analysis on Clones (I'd link, but I'm using my phone so you'll have to Google it). There's a chapter there that talks about the visual symbolism of that film. Sure, you could argue that some of it may have been a happy accident, or done more subconsciously, but you can make that argument about all of the saga, even Empire which I think you're putting on too much of a pedestal. Of course, I doubt much of anything in any of the films is really an accident.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-13454943377617206092012-12-28T20:34:32.852-05:002012-12-28T20:34:32.852-05:00I'm mostly talking about Empire when I bring u...I'm mostly talking about Empire when I bring up the good stuff, but there the visuals help to enhance or develop the themes within the film, and the visuals are varied in their construction and editing. I don't see that at all in Return through Revenge, though if you'd like to elaborate on how the visuals help to develop the story, be my guest.T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-48255766989711166882012-12-28T20:29:16.998-05:002012-12-28T20:29:16.998-05:00You keep bringing up blocking and cinematography. ...You keep bringing up blocking and cinematography. IV-VI have the same kind of blocking and cinematography. I see no difference in it. So either you're giving IV-VI too much credit or I-III not nearly enough.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-86738330554504919692012-12-28T20:22:49.938-05:002012-12-28T20:22:49.938-05:00Subtle is one thing, but I never feel as if it'...Subtle is one thing, but I never feel as if it's even purposeful in the films, and when it is present it's only in the script- what characters directly say or do. Nothing about the actual films (the cinematography, blocking, direction in general) actually develops the ambiguity it's trying to put forth. Which makes it feel accidental or underdeveloped.T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-70855127972627594142012-12-28T20:14:02.712-05:002012-12-28T20:14:02.712-05:00You know what though? It is an excuse. It's ve...You know what though? It is an excuse. It's very subtle, and there's nothing wrong with subtle. Besides, like it or not the target audience for these films has always been 7-12 year-olds. That it has stuff to offer older viewers is a bonus and what makes the saga great, but still...The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-82409134345858054412012-12-28T19:59:19.112-05:002012-12-28T19:59:19.112-05:00I saw this all for the first time as a kid, so I c...I saw this all for the first time as a kid, so I can pretty much say it all went over my head.<br /><br />And I don't disagree most of the saga is like that (though it's really not an excuse- only the original can get away with it on account of it being the first one). The only one I argue has the kind of complexity I'm talking about is Empire, and likely the original version of Return (though since that likely wasn't ever scripted I thus haven't read it and cannot make an assumption like that).T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-44030449183965202262012-12-28T12:42:56.269-05:002012-12-28T12:42:56.269-05:00I'll grant that the complexity is more fridge ...I'll grant that the complexity is more fridge brilliance (that it doesn't hit you until you get a snack from the fridge later on), but the whole saga is like that, really. How much of what you say about IV-VI honestly struck you the very first time you saw it?The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-12793517248405758392012-12-28T12:32:03.746-05:002012-12-28T12:32:03.746-05:00See, and I don't think they really are in the ...See, and I don't think they really are in the prequels. I mean, yes, not everyone can be deemed outright evil in the way Palpatine is, but the morals of each character aren't really questioned in a meaningful fashion- the Neimodians and later Separatists may be manipulated by Palpatine, but the films still treat them as 'the bad guys' and don't offer up a lot to make them more complex than that.<br /><br />I think a large part of the problem is that there's a gap between what Lucas is trying to say and what he actually ends up saying- the Ep. III crawl tells us "there's heroes on both sides", but we never actually see this, and the film basically presents itself as "the good Jedi vs. evil Sith and robots". We're not really forced to, as an audience, think about the actions and consequences of these characters as something other than their base role in the story- we're meant to treat what the Jedi do as smart and wise and the Separatists as misguided. About the only ambiguity present is the corruption of the Senate, but even that just reads as being satirical of the government (he even slips in a Bush reference into Ep. III) rather than anything meaningful about the actions of the characters.<br /><br />In the end I do think it's the execution that hampers the complexity of the prequels- there's a lot of potential for ambiguity and intricacy, but the way they're handled in the film is just the very basest "good vs. evil".T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-3342206972032236222012-12-28T08:57:52.608-05:002012-12-28T08:57:52.608-05:00Ooh, it had me reply to the wrong comment. Sorry.
...Ooh, it had me reply to the wrong comment. Sorry.<br /><br />My point was that the character morals are far more ambiguous in I-III. IV-VI have Han, Lando, and eventually Vader, but everyone else is more clear-cut.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-56897389542541653022012-12-28T08:47:17.149-05:002012-12-28T08:47:17.149-05:00It really depends on the senator as to whether the...It really depends on the senator as to whether they are good or bad. the clones are simply in service of the Chancellor, and well, they did murder the Jedi. Nute Gunray at least I think can be casted as evil, but never as evil as the Sith. Diego Perez de Vargas Machuca https://www.blogger.com/profile/13231112862216263516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-43456810661044968132012-12-27T21:55:21.571-05:002012-12-27T21:55:21.571-05:00Yes the Sith are evil, but while the Jedi stand fo...Yes the Sith are evil, but while the Jedi stand for good, the movies portray the order as out of touch. Are the senators good or bad? The clones? The Trade Federation are an unsavory bunch, but calling them evil may be a stretch.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-14181227998206837152012-12-27T21:42:04.929-05:002012-12-27T21:42:04.929-05:00But the way the movies portray the good guys and t...But the way the movies portray the good guys and the bad guys makes it seem very black and white. We're never in doubt that the Sith are bad and the Jedi are good, and it's not meaningfully questioned in the film itself. Most of the questionable stuff from the Jedi comes off as more accidental than purposeful.<br /><br />The base actions of the characters don't really matter as much as how they're portrayed and interpreted within the film itself.T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-66068861137324799852012-12-27T17:53:56.948-05:002012-12-27T17:53:56.948-05:00The villains aren't always clear cut. Palpatin...The villains aren't always clear cut. Palpatine is very hidden until Sith; only people who recognized the character name or know Ian's face well can tell. And the Jedi are shown by their actions to be just as responsible for their own downfall. They raise a lot of questions of who is really to blame for the fall of the Republic (the answer, after some analysis? Everyone).The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-22746187765715007522012-12-27T17:44:55.292-05:002012-12-27T17:44:55.292-05:00You're right about the original film- the mora...You're right about the original film- the moral complexity is more retroactively present through Empire. But I don't really see a lot of it in the prequels, especially with how clear-cut the villains are. T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-35061215462844512812012-12-27T16:36:54.372-05:002012-12-27T16:36:54.372-05:00New Hope had little moral complexity if any. I-III...New Hope had little moral complexity if any. I-III, on the other hand, have an abundance.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-80896465970073003862012-12-27T14:33:51.872-05:002012-12-27T14:33:51.872-05:00I don't really see him as more or less effecti...I don't really see him as more or less effective either way- it's just two different takes on the character (personally, I find the initial idea more interesting than 'most evil man in the galaxy', but to each their own).<br /><br />And yeah, we get shades of grey with Anakin, but the base premise is still reverted to a very reductive good vs. evil sort of deal. It's a regression from the moral complexity of the initial two films, if not a complete one.T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-76783967605504156272012-12-27T09:39:53.957-05:002012-12-27T09:39:53.957-05:00Palpatine is much more effective as a chessmaster....Palpatine is much more effective as a chessmaster. You still have the shades of grey thing in Anakin and how the Jedi handled him.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-84957485563724556292012-12-27T09:38:41.446-05:002012-12-27T09:38:41.446-05:00I should clarify that I actually do like Return as...I should clarify that I actually do like Return as a movie and think for the most part it works. It's just that I also think it wastes a lot of the potential set up by the previous two films, and what we get is a much less interesting film. I like it (and it has a huge amount of nostalgic value for me), but I'm also frustrated with it at the same time.T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-19020596475645317072012-12-27T09:36:02.373-05:002012-12-27T09:36:02.373-05:00Yes, they deserve celebration and victory, but jus...Yes, they deserve celebration and victory, but just because they win the battle doesn't mean that everything is going to turn out 100% hunky dory. That's what the 'bittersweet' means- it's not tragic, just not completely happy.<br /><br />I mean, that's a large part of what Empire was developing towards, especially with its breaking down the barriers of simple 'good vs. evil', by showing us a villain who had good within him, and a friend capable of betrayal. The initial outline for the prequels showcased this as well, with the Emperor being a good man twisted and used by the bureaucracy. So for that to be set up and then reset to a basic black and white, good vs. evil sort of deal is...disappointing, to say the least.T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-49747084263423181842012-12-27T09:09:41.141-05:002012-12-27T09:09:41.141-05:00I like the twist, I just don't like how it was...I like the twist, I just don't like how it was essentially glossed over and not really addressed in Jedi. It was just an "oh, that happened" kind of thing.<br /><br />But I really don't want to harp on it. I still love Jedi and all of Star Wars. This ship runs on happy faces!The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.com