tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post6716730136104938350..comments2023-11-05T06:37:16.480-05:00Comments on Nilbog's Storybook Land: Seven Reasons Why The Phantom Menace MattersThe Nilboghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-52512699101938177862013-08-25T19:14:07.104-04:002013-08-25T19:14:07.104-04:00Every Star Wars movie is important. I mean, when p...Every Star Wars movie is important. I mean, when people say that it's like ripping out a whole chapter in a story, which is what star wars is, a story. Each episode is like a new chapter, you need them all in order to comprehend the story better.Roxxihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04456074696860926767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-61253346901697994362013-07-14T12:23:43.375-04:002013-07-14T12:23:43.375-04:00The importance of Phantom Menace to the overall sa...The importance of Phantom Menace to the overall saga, looking at it from the most simple point of view, is that the reason why Anakin falls to the dark side and becomes Darth Vader, originated with the fact that he didn't have his mother after he was 9 years old. Lucas specifically made him that young because it's that effect that ripples into the next films. Diego Perez de Vargas Machuca https://www.blogger.com/profile/13231112862216263516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-78202566073583462802013-07-13T19:42:13.469-04:002013-07-13T19:42:13.469-04:00Yes, please. Agree to disagree. At the end of the ...Yes, please. Agree to disagree. At the end of the day it's an argument of taste anyway.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-44264122038644930662013-07-13T19:40:18.546-04:002013-07-13T19:40:18.546-04:00Allright, honestly, I'm having a hard time exp...Allright, honestly, I'm having a hard time expressing myself and I seem to be making a lot of the same points over and over again, so for the first time I'm just going to ask that we agree to disagree on this for now. I don't like pulling out like this and if you want I can definitely try to come up with a reasonable counterargument, but I just don't think I'm offering very much to the discussion right now. I'm sorry.T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-69701046587223771982013-07-13T18:55:32.919-04:002013-07-13T18:55:32.919-04:00Umm, it's justified because it's interesti...Umm, it's justified because it's interesting and fun.<br /><br />That should be more than enough, but that's a matter of opinion so I'll go further.<br /><br />No, they couldn't have, or else you wouldn't have the mystery of the Clones. It's trying to pack way too much into an already complex and subtle story. Let it breathe, let the audience understand what it is they're seeing before throwing something else at them. Like I mentioned before, but I'll repeat here: there are so many new settings and ideas that people need to be introduced to the world as it is now before things really get going. And it is the foundation of everything that comes after, even if it was made before.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-85704672495937352032013-07-13T18:28:34.096-04:002013-07-13T18:28:34.096-04:00All of your points, though, could've easily be...All of your points, though, could've easily been folded into a movie that ends with the start of the Clone Wars. How is it justified to spend this much time with that?T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-3333330961440616122013-07-13T17:42:59.720-04:002013-07-13T17:42:59.720-04:00Oh. My. God. I seriously just explained exactly th...Oh. My. God. I seriously just explained exactly this in this very article. The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-79981294767537269522013-07-13T17:37:01.461-04:002013-07-13T17:37:01.461-04:00But what does TPM offer that is inherently crucial...But what does TPM offer that is inherently crucially important to the saga that justifies its existence as-is as a two-hour film? The basic plot (Palpatine manufactures a crisis to move himself in power) is redone for AOTC, the protagonist and antagonist (Qui-Gon and Maul) don't carry over, Amidala's Queenhood is abandoned by the next film, Anakin's time as a child is basically ignored aside from issues with his mother...there really isn't any reason for TPM to spend as much time as it does on setup that is either repeated or ignored later in the saga- and what little it does offer could easily be folded into an Act 1 that would be more similar to AOTC.T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-29395009835472252712013-07-13T17:26:47.039-04:002013-07-13T17:26:47.039-04:00"You've put your keen and brilliant mind ..."You've put your keen and brilliant mind to the task and, as usual, have come to the wrong conclusion." - Sirius Black<br /><br />I think the story is justified plenty, as I and many others have already explained time and again. Also, Anakin's journey is clear-cut, there's nothing wrong with it.<br /><br />COULD it be done differently and still work? Possibly, but you could say the same about literally everything. And if anything changed, it would be a completely different story. The story we got was perfectly fine as is.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-60415890562291015192013-07-13T17:01:57.893-04:002013-07-13T17:01:57.893-04:00There's a difference between rushing things an...There's a difference between rushing things and compressing the storytelling...it's generally considered good pacing and structuring to not spend an inordinate amount of time on set-up and move to the main events quickly. I'm not adverse to spending time with things, but when it buggers up the structuring it becomes a problem.<br /><br />Really, though, the bigger issue here is that I don't think that the film justifies the time it spends on these situations. I've always felt there's no real rules to storytelling, but the trick to that is as an artist you have to always justify every decision you make when crafting your story. And what reason is there to spend as much time on the pre-Palpatine Republic and the child Anakin as the film does? Is it truly necessary to the goals of the trilogy as a whole? I'd argue it isn't, and more importantly I'd argue it actually impedes the trilogy from working as effectively as it should.T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-58850740400115028392013-07-13T15:25:41.784-04:002013-07-13T15:25:41.784-04:00Why do you want to rush things so much? Why can...Why do you want to rush things so much? Why can't you enjoy watching the story and being in the world? Why do you want so desperately to have it over and done with?The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-64534379764257336202013-07-13T15:10:03.116-04:002013-07-13T15:10:03.116-04:00I don't see why it's necessary for him to ...I don't see why it's necessary for him to be a child, though. You can still seed those things in him as an older teenager or even young adult, but even if you did need him as a child, there's no reason why they had to spend a whole movie with him like that...Citizen Kane, for example, did almost all the issues Anakin faces as a child but confined it to about 10 minutes. It certainly didn't need a whole two-hour film to do.<br /><br />And why is it important we see the Republic before Palpatine's election? It isn't shown to be at all different before or after his initial election, so I don't see why it's so important to spend an entire movie showing the status quo.T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-40243006007523467302013-07-13T13:52:20.216-04:002013-07-13T13:52:20.216-04:00Actually, it IS important that you see him get ele...Actually, it IS important that you see him get elected. It is very important that you see the Republic BEFORE he takes power. Once he's elected, the Republic is dead (it just doesn't know it yet).<br /><br />And as for your comment on a child Anakin, reread my post.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-15452081292930604282013-07-13T13:17:20.514-04:002013-07-13T13:17:20.514-04:00Luke makes his first appearance 20 minutes in, and...Luke makes his first appearance 20 minutes in, and would've been introduced much earlier had his scenes not been cut for I think pacing reasons. And the central difference between him and Anakin is that the entire focus of the original film shifts to Luke once he makes his appearance, and becomes the central driving character of the film after that. This doesn't happen for Anakin (being a MacGuffin doesn't make your character a central character). Also, Luke wasn't a kid in the first film (which is the major thing that really impacted Anakin's central development as a character).<br /><br />As for your points on the Clone Wars, none of that reasoning is actually necessary to telling the story at hand. We could've easily started the films off with Palpatine as the Chancellor and just be told he's been there for a while. We actually have no need of seeing him get elected aside from hammering in the point that he's a manipulator, which I think we've seen enough of to not need it here (not to mention the fact that the 'emergency powers' thing could still been pushed to the second film as a subplot).T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-44230158544333850772013-07-13T07:23:59.797-04:002013-07-13T07:23:59.797-04:00Although I do agree with you on one point, and tha...Although I do agree with you on one point, and that's Qui-Gon. He was meant to reappear to tie everything together and Liam couldn't make it. That is a legitimate flaw, and I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to see more of him. That being said, it's hardly a dealbreaker, and I felt Dooku evoking him in Clones was a brilliant move on both a character and plot level (not to mention a lovely bit of acting).The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-75888534302536717752013-07-13T07:19:35.795-04:002013-07-13T07:19:35.795-04:00Luke didn't come in until a decent way through...Luke didn't come in until a decent way through Hope.<br /><br />Besides, Anakin's understated introduction is a brilliant bit of audience manipulation, because you wouldn't expect such lowly origins for such an important character. However, I think "kid sidekick" is a bit disengenuous. Once he reappears to rescue Jar Jar, he becomes one of the central characters and something of a McGuffin to drive the plot.<br /><br />Also, again, while the Clone Wars was a seminal event in galactic history, it was not meant to be the major focus, and having it in Phantom is jumping the gun too much. Remember, there hasn't been a full scale war since the formation of the Republic, and Palpatine rushing into one would raise some red flags. His plan was to use the Naboo blockade as a sympathy vote in order to get elected, he couldn't have done it otherwise. He also then needed to stay in office long enough to become a trusted leader, so that when emergency powers were proposed, it wouldn't seem like it was his plan all along.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-44164622905699359352013-07-13T03:31:48.483-04:002013-07-13T03:31:48.483-04:00Your last point, though, is again post-hoc... it&#...Your last point, though, is again post-hoc... it's very easy to imagine him being assigned specifically to act as Padme's bodyguard during the war (heck, perhaps he wants to fight but because of his inexperience or what-not is forced to be her caretaker, thus setting up a source of tension between him and the council).<br /><br />And yes, the central arc of the film is obviously as a character piece for Anakin. But that doesn't prevent the Clone Wars from being the central *plot* device that drives the trilogy and acts as a general framing device for mapping out the character arcs. And pushing it off to unseen territory makes it less futile as almost completely irrelevant, with us as the audience not really seeing how it affects these characters and places.<br /><br />But to focus on Anakin for a minute, let's look at the idea that the trilogy is ostensibly focused on him and his development as a character...if that's true (and I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue otherwise) then the structuring is still bizarre, as the first film doesn't introduce him until half-way through and even when he does appear he acts as a supporting character and is mostly static (he's the kid sidekick, basically). He then has to be basically re-introduced for AOTC as he's now ten years older, and is given new problems and tensions with which he then starts to develop.<br /><br />I really can't see any explanation of the trilogy that accounts for the fact that our main character doesn't actually appear until halfway through the first act, and really doesn't appear in a meaningful sense until the second. It's even worse given that the actual main character- Qui-Gon- is killed off and basically forgotten about in the later two films aside from some off-hand mentions. TPM is oddly separated from the later two films, and while I think the 'calm before the storm' argument is quite strong, it nonetheless stands that more could've been incorporated into the film to make it matter more in the context of the trilogy as a whole.T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-71423536792219245062013-07-13T03:10:07.176-04:002013-07-13T03:10:07.176-04:00But it's the central event that anchors the ch...But it's the central event that anchors the characters and situations through the trilogy- plot-wise everything in TPM and AOTC leads up to it, and everything in ROTS is the fallout from it. Even as a tool of Palpatine's it's still the center of the trilogy (again, looking at it merely from a plot perspective and not from character).T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-8109233118851442922013-07-12T23:06:55.010-04:002013-07-12T23:06:55.010-04:00["The real issue here is a matter of structur...["The real issue here is a matter of structure within the trilogy, specifically with the Clone Wars- after all, they are the main event that provides a framing device to the trilogy (analogous to the Alliance vs. Empire in the OT). Assuming that the PT follows a traditional three-act structure across the three films (which is fair- Star Wars has always been rather classically composed in its screenwriting), Act 1 (TPM) is set-up, 2 (AOTC) is the main war, and 3 (ROTS) is the fall-out and resolution."]<br /><br /><br />The Clone Wars was nothing more than one tool that Palpatine used to destroy the Jedi and seek more power. But I don't believe that it was or should have been the center of the narrative for the Prequel Trilogy. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-8074303038819746412013-07-12T07:33:57.998-04:002013-07-12T07:33:57.998-04:00No, it doesn't, because the Clone Wars are not...No, it doesn't, because the Clone Wars are not the central conflict. The central conflict is between Anakin and his emotions.<br /><br />I think it's extremely telling that in the Saga proper we only see the first and last shots of the Clone Wars because it drives home that the whole thing was futile. It was smoke and mirrors, and this was deliberate.<br /><br />Understand, as much as Lucas put things in place to allow Empire and Jedi to be made, there was little guarentee. Therefore New Hope is neat and self-contained. With I-III he knew hewwould have enough to finish the story whatever, so he allowed himself to take more time with things. Phantom Menace is more self-contained than the other two, but still sets up a lot to be continued later.<br /><br />And there's nothing wrong with that, and I think people don't realize this. I remember when I saw Fellowship of the Ring for the first time, and an audience member complained about the weak ending. People aren't taking into account that full appreciation isn't supposed to come until the entire story is told.<br /><br />Finally, Ani-me's love story taking place during the CW doesn't work because they simply wouldn't have enough time with Anakin being sent every which way. It's perfect the way it is.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-60513090248291336742013-07-12T00:46:57.153-04:002013-07-12T00:46:57.153-04:00Good article, but the issue here is that I don'...Good article, but the issue here is that I don't think you're quite understanding my original comment (which is likely my fault- I have a habit of badly expressing my critiques).<br /><br />Because yes, obviously TPM is necessary when looking at the entire trilogy as it ended up being scripted, but that's a bit of a post-hoc justification. My argument isn't so much that it's totally unnecessary, rather that it takes too much time to establish relatively little, and much of what ends up being established could've been done in other ways.<br /><br />The real issue here is a matter of structure within the trilogy, specifically with the Clone Wars- after all, they are the main event that provides a framing device to the trilogy (analogous to the Alliance vs. Empire in the OT). Assuming that the PT follows a traditional three-act structure across the three films (which is fair- Star Wars has always been rather classically composed in its screenwriting), Act 1 (TPM) is set-up, 2 (AOTC) is the main war, and 3 (ROTS) is the fall-out and resolution.<br /><br />So with that in mind, it's a bit of a mystery as to why the central event of the Clone Wars is pushed to the end of Act II, and then primarily occurs off-screen. Aside from that not being particularly good storytelling (show, don't tell and all that), it's just not very good structuring, with the central thrust of the plot occurring entirely within the third quarter of the film. The fault of the matter here lies in that there's too much set-up spread out over TPM and AOTC- in practice, those two stories plot-wise should've been combined together (after all, the basic plot of each is that Palpatine manufactures a crisis to get into power), with the end of the first film being the start of the Clone Wars, and the second being the war itself (with the story of Anakin and Padme's love being told with that).<br /><br />Now, there's a gaping hole you've probably noticed in my argument above, which is that I'm entirely discussing plot and haven't even mentioned character yet. Which, fair enough, is true. I have a bit more to say on character but am a little short on time at the moment (just got back on vacation and need to unpack and stuff) so will continue this sometime later. Hopefully what I'm saying makes sense, though?T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-64423284955035805122013-07-12T00:25:26.826-04:002013-07-12T00:25:26.826-04:00Yeah, it's worth noting the original films upo...Yeah, it's worth noting the original films upon release had a large female following as well. Star Wars has always leaned a bit more towards the masculine side in terms of demographics, but I don't think there's any specific split between one trilogy versus the other.T. Hartwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602995118108914316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-33679828686878225392013-07-09T07:00:47.512-04:002013-07-09T07:00:47.512-04:00While I do see your point, I'm hesitant to put...While I do see your point, I'm hesitant to put those kinds of labels on it.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-69399323231623009882013-07-08T23:50:39.660-04:002013-07-08T23:50:39.660-04:00Oh yeah, I'm aware of the female haters too bu...Oh yeah, I'm aware of the female haters too but they're in the minority compared to the male haters. I remember when the Phantom Menace came out, so many of my female classmates wanted to see it, which surprised me because many of them never expressed any interest in Star Wars before. Those girls that went to see LOVED it possibly because a.) It was beautiful to look at b.) they loved Queen Amidala in all her regal glory c.) they thought Jar Jar Binks and Anakin were cute and c.) they fell in love with Ewan MacGregor. It was significant to me because this was not too long after the Titanic craze died down and media talking heads were predicting that love stories would become the next big thing. I always saw the OT as the "masculine" trilogy and the PT as the "feminine" trilogy.M. Marshallhttp://theladyfromplanetx.tumblr.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5543195171933661664.post-53754713456083082902013-07-08T06:58:24.438-04:002013-07-08T06:58:24.438-04:00Now, there's a difference between just not lik...Now, there's a difference between just not liking something and bullying others about it.The Nilboghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03902509798047158212noreply@blogger.com